Posts by Cold Steel

12

Jehovah's Witnesses Baptism Fraud

by Watchtower-Free in

i found this on youtube .........................emotional video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtxasmyxtyq.

"in the summer of 1946, i was baptized at the international convention in cleveland, ohio.

Cold Steel

I wish some of you would make a YouTube video on shunning. First, how it's imposed and on who; then, how it's carried out. Shoot a scene showing what shunning is like. Have someone play a shunned person and then get others to play the parts of cogregation members. That way we can see what it's like. Then, finally, show what happens to someone who breaks the shunning rule and hangs out with someone who's shunned. Find former elders to play their appropriate parts. You might even start with a mock baptism interview, a baptism, the tighening of the noose, enstrangement, the warning, the trial, the announcement, the shunning, etc.

If it's an accurate portrayal, and if it isn't too heavy handed, it could be quite a hit, not to mention educational. Work out the video very carefully, avoid bad acting and take us through the whole gamut.

The biggest challenge is finding enough people, but it could be done. You also can legally take video shots outdoors of a Kingdom Hall on a Sunday as long as you don't step on church property. It's also a good idea not to identify individuals (unless they want to talk to you...unlikely). If someone sees you taking videos and tries to shoo you away, you can legally shoot that, too.

Anyway, I'd like to see it.

23

New requirement to be Recommended

by bruh2012 in

per co last night, he mentioned in his talk that in oder for a brother to be recommended as an elder or ministrial servant he must have a regular and meaningful family worship night.

this will demostrate his willingness not to miss that important meeting and preside over his household.. so i thought, wow what a way to add to the "inspired" biblical list of qualifications.

serving jehovah is sounding more and more and more organizational..

Cold Steel

NY44M: Don't the Mormons have something similar, although I think they can play games, as long as they are together doing something.

Yes, it's called "Family Home Evening." President David O. McKay, who introduced it, said, "No success in life can compensate for failure in the home." Rather than being a "home worship," however, ours is supposed to be fun. Family games, sorting out family issues, some scripture study if desired, but always beginning and ending with a prayer. Our night is generally held on Monday, but it can be any day during the week.

32

Can god see into the future?

by DuvanMuvan in

this is something that's been bothering me for a while.. if god could see into the future, why has he allowed so many bad things to happen?

for example in the garden of eden.

he should have known from the beginning what would happen.if there was even the tiniest chance that they'd eat the fruit then god obviously didn't think it would be benefical to, idk, prevent it from happening?

Cold Steel

Smiddy, you're proceeding from the assumption that there's somehow a connection between God and the Jehovah's Witnesses. If the WTBTS and the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's established kingdom and people on the earth, then it will be the first time in Jewish and Christian history when God has chosen a people and His servants inaudibly and invisibly.

The Governing Body issues instructions as if they'd heard them directly from the Lord. But have they seen Him? Have they seen Him or heard His voice? Have they seen angels? How did they get their ministerial authority?

The reason this is a salient point is that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have an extremely narrow view of God. Armageddon pertains to the world’s war against them. There is no “beast” that will consolidate power throughout the Middle East as the Bible states. Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordon, Turkey and, to the north, possibly Russia, against the restored nation of Israel. The Bible is very Jerusalem-centric. It doesn’t usually concern itself with the Western Hemisphere (although some prophecy relates to it). But we’re asked by the Governing Body to take in the vast area the scriptures actually calls by their ancient names, convert it and rebrand it to the tiny world of the Jehovah’s Witnesses! For example, Zechariah and other prophets teach that Armageddon will culminate in the coming of Yahweh to the Mount of Olives in glory with all those nations I mentioned specifically referenced as being the players in the great battle. But if we can’t trust the scriptures to mean what they say (rather than what the Governing Body says they mean), what’s to keep the Governing Body from playing the same old games, like “invisible” happenings and figurative occurrences?

Certainly, if one believes God to exist, then yes, God knows everything there is to know about everything. But if one couples that belief with the assumption that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are His people, then you’ve got serious problems.

32

Can god see into the future?

by DuvanMuvan in

this is something that's been bothering me for a while.. if god could see into the future, why has he allowed so many bad things to happen?

for example in the garden of eden.

he should have known from the beginning what would happen.if there was even the tiniest chance that they'd eat the fruit then god obviously didn't think it would be benefical to, idk, prevent it from happening?

Cold Steel

DuvanMuvan: If god could see into the future, why has he allowed so many bad things to happen? For example in the garden of eden. He should have known from the beginning what would happen.If there was even the tiniest chance that they'd eat the fruit then god obviously didn't think it would be benefical to, idk, prevent it from happening? Especially since he would have been able to see all the sufferring that would come as a result of it. I've been told that it was because of our "free will" or something but that raises a whole load of other problems.

The scriptures teach that God knows all things from the beginning. So about the Garden of Eden, what makes you think God didn't want us to fall? Think about it, God places two intelligent but naive beings into an environment where everything is given to them on a platter. No poisonous insects, no infectious diseases, animals who only want to be our friends and the most cunningly evil being in the cosmos. Then he places a tree in the garden, the fruit of which gives man the ability to know good from evil and which induces death, and he commands us not to eat that fruit. Doesn't that sound like a setup to you?

The idea was for man to partake of that fruit. Why? Because man taking upon himself death and wisdom had to be his choice, not God's. In premortality, God had already held a grand council in which he had appointed a savior (Yahweh) for mankind; and why a savior if he didn't know man would need one. Because of God's laws of justice and through the atonement by Jesus, man first took upon himself death, then gained the power to be resurrected to a state much superior to that of Adam and Eve. Both were immortal, but they were created without any glory or power whatsoever. Because of the atonement, man can be resurrected to a state where he is equal to Christ in power and glory. John said that we don't know what we will attain through Christ, but that "when we see him, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." As co-inheritors with Christ, he said, we inherit all that the Father has. Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father and we sit down with him in his throne. Even those who don't attain to this highest degree of glory can attain lesser degrees which, while lower, are still vastly superior to the glory of Adam and Eve, which was no glory whatsoever.

As stated, God could not force man to fall because he knew it would bring about suffering and death. He had to place him in a position to choose it himself. Suffering and death allows man to be tried and tested, to face and endure death. On the plus side, man gained one of God's greatest powers: to know good from evil. Man could not become as God without 1) knowing good from evil, and 2) an atonement that would catapult him into a superior state of physical being. Had Adam and Eve subsequently partaken of the tree of life, it would have been a disaster, for it would have reverted man into what he was: knowing good from evil, but being immortal, with no opportunity of growth or to suffer, both of which was necessary to God's plan. So of course God knew what would happen. He was counting on it. And because he knows all things, he knows every facet of what will happen. But the laws he lives by also requires that he allow man free agency; and to stop all evil would be contrary to that. True, there are some situations in which he does interfere, but overall he must allow man to pursue his own dictates without interference. It's difficult to explain, but nevertheless a fact.

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41

Hell or no hell

by never a jw in

about a year ago i had an exchange of emails with an elder of a congregation where all my jw relatives attend.

i asked him all kinds of questions regarding blood, 607, shunning, evolution, higher education.

as anticipated, he either had no answer or provided an evasive one.

Cold Steel

Vanderhovan: Cold Steel, What is the position of the LDS church on hell and torment?

It’s complicated, and it’s based on modern revelation rather than just what’s in the Bible (which isn’t much).

The term “Eternal” is esoteric. Just as Eternal Life doesn’t merely mean living forever, Eternal Torment doesn’t mean being tormented forever. Rather, the term “Eternal” is a term that refers to that which is meted out by God. In the Book of Mormon, a man by the name of Alma who, with his friends, were miscreants in their youth. Then they were confronted by an angel and severely rebuked after which they fell to the earth and remained as dead for three days.

Afterwards, Alma wrote that he “was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.” He said he suffered “eternal torment” and yet it lasted but mere days (though I’m sure it seemed to last longer). He also described his experience I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. Yea, and I had...led [many of God’s children] away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.” (Alma 36)

In Mormon theology, those who have sinned against the Holy Spirit — that is, those who have received a sure knowledge of the power of God and then denied it — are called “sons of perdition.” They are those who are resurrected with no glory and cast into outer darkness with Satan and his angels.

Sidney Rigdon was one of the co-founders of the churches of Christ. But in the late 1820s he broke away from Alexander Campbell over the issue that they lacked the authority from God to baptize, ordain, confer the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. An astounding speaker and preacher, he met Joseph Smith and became convinced that the LDS faith had that authority. He also believed that Smith received the revelations and visions he said he had.

In 1832, he had an experience confirming those beliefs. Both he and Smith received a joint revelation known from that day forth as “The Vision.” Regarding the fate of the wicked, the two prophets were told that the atonement of Christ guaranteed each of God’s children an inheritance, and the scriptures state that the time would come when every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ. And though people will inherit varying degrees of glory, many will have to pass through hell to fully comprehend the pain and suffering they’ve caused others. The revelation states in part:

These are they which have willfully placed themselves beyond God’s power, and according to the revelation, no one knows their ultimate fate save those who are partakers of it:

The nature of this revelation caused many of the early latter-day saints problems because it went against everything they had been taught. In fact, it went against everything Rigdon and Smith had been taught. There were others present when this vision was given and though some could see glory, or light, emanating from Rigdon’s and Smith’s faces, only Rigdon and Smith actually saw the vision. One would say, “What do I see?” and then describe what he was seeing, and the other would say, “I see the same.” Then he would say what he saw, and it went back and forth and written in real time by a scribe. One LDS authority years later said: “What, then, is ‘the second death?’ ... It is eternal banishment from His presence. He is the source of light and truth and power and glory and happiness and joy and dominion and increase forever, of which they will all be deprived. Being shut right out from the light, these shall go away into outer darkness where no ray of light comes, spiritual or physical-no ray of light from sun or moon or twinkling star or even a comet; to be in outer darkness, and no wonder there is ‘weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth,’ to use the scriptural expression.”

Some of our early authorities speculated that Satan, his angels and the sons of perdition would be reduced to their native elements and they used potter’s clay and defective vessels as examples. When pottery is defective, it will be broken down and returned to the clay, never to become that vessel again. Some LDS church members speculate that such spirits will be consigned to black holes, which seem to fit the term “outer darkness.” Since no one knows what happens once one passes through an event horizon — whether there are time dilations or whether it simply rips all matter to pieces, who knows. A black hole seems to the only thing in the universe completely devoid of light. But be that as it is, it, too, is merely speculation. Many think that spirits are not matter, but according to our scriptures, they are; just a more refined matter.

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41

Hell or no hell

by never a jw in

about a year ago i had an exchange of emails with an elder of a congregation where all my jw relatives attend.

i asked him all kinds of questions regarding blood, 607, shunning, evolution, higher education.

as anticipated, he either had no answer or provided an evasive one.

Cold Steel

The notion of "hell" has been interpreted in many ways. My own concept of a merciful and just God is that He would never inflict torture on anyone; rather, men bring it on themselves. And though hell is real in my opinion, I believe it's remedial and that it ends. People who have had "near death" experiences often report hell as being a repeated reliving of their lives. A similar idea was shown in the movie Clockwork Orange, where young, violent miscreants have their eyelids pinned open and their heads bound while they were forced to watch scenes of unspeakable violence for hours one end until they were sickened by it.

In the case of hell, people will be forced to relive their lives in such a way that they will experience, in ways we don't understand, the hurt and evil we've inflicted on others. In cases like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lincoln and other war mongers, I suspect they'll have much to suffer as they experience, in context, the lives of each person they tortured and killed. Eventually, they'll come out of hell and gain whatever mercy and grace the Lord chooses to extend to threm. There are numerous near death experiences where people have had to go through this, but were allowed to return. So take it for what it's worth. It doesn't make sense to me that the wicked should suffer extreme pain and anguish for trillions of years (and that's only a fraction of an eternity).

24

Views on women priests.

by quellycatface in

having an interesting time at the moment with my faith journey.

my hubs was confirmed a catholic and his views are no women priests because there weren't any in the bible.

hence, the absence in rc churches.. my mother is a jw.

Cold Steel

Women are just as capable of receiving inspiration and guidance as men; the Lord is no respector of persons. But in relation to the priesthood, the Lord has withheld this from women. The Levites were all men. John the Baptist, who received the priesthood from his father, was a man; and the apostles were all men and all were ordained by Jesus. The two endtime prophets who will minister to the Jews during the battle of Armageddon aren't identified as men, and some women on the Internet have thrown their bonnets into the ring, claiming to be one of the prophets. (See Rev. 11)

In many of the early Christian apocraphal books discovered circa 1947 (and since), the scene is painted of the apostles being absolutely livid over the information Jesus shared with Mary. Indeed, in at least one of these works, Mary is identified as his "spouse." The point, though, is that there are things Jesus taught to the apostles, and apparently Mary as well, that pertained to the "mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven." Just what these teachings are is moot, but what is not is that Jesus consistently kept Mary in his inner circle, often sharing things with her that he didn't tell the apostles. On occasion, the apostles went so far as to either try to get certain information from the Lord or tell them what the Lord had revealed to her. They apparently felt that because they were ordained, that they had an entitlement.

Women were never empowered to offer sacrifices, baptize, ordain, heal the sick or particiapate in the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Spirit. But at various times they were called to be prophetesses. But there's never been a documented case of a woman engaging in the ordinances listed above. But as far as being able to prophesy, receive revelation and so forth, there doesn't seem to be any limitations. Priesthood carries with it not only the power to preside, but the power to conduct ordinance work. And women are shown as having equal rights to salvation in the Kingdom of God, but not in priesthood authority.

My only beef is since everyone in the New Covenant is part of the priesthood of believers, why should there be a separate priestly class to begin with?

We have to look at the New Testament and not the teachings of the WBTS. There's actually no such thing as a "priesthood of believers." That's a complete misconception of scripture. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that each baptized member is an ordained ministerial servant is a FALSE DOCTRINE and has no foundation in either scripture or tradition. The only priestly classes we see in the scriptures are the Levitical, or Aaronic, Priesthood and the Melchizedek, or Holy Priesthood, which many believe to be held only by Jesus and Melchizedek. The only office associated with this priesthood is that of High Priest; however, the Bible lacks a lot of information. Do elders have priesthood? If so, what kind? How about bishops, seventy, and priests? In fact, doesn't the term "priest" imply priesthood? As far as I know, the WTBTS does not claim to be a church. And there are no ordinations. As far as I'm concerned, that's a tacit admission of illegitimacy.

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13

I am not going for JC!

by exWTslave in

this morning two elders visited me and said this years memorial day is on april 14, and we are informing you well in advance so that you can arrange your affairs and attend.

[i had given them the impression that i am very busy due to my secular assignments, hence most of the time out of station.].

then i thought two elders visiting me cannot have an ordinary purpose, and i should give them a piece of my mind.

Cold Steel

There are too many religions that teach if you're not with us, you're against us.

If Jesus died for the sins of the world, and I believe he did (Isa. 53), he would not just let a handful of people to benefit from it. Animal sacrifice pointed to the Messiah, the killing of the sacral ram pointed the way to the Messiah and the great premortal council pointed to the Messiah. One scholar writes:

His destiny to become mankind's Savior is reflected in an early Christian document, the Discourse on Abbaton, folios 11b-12a, which has the resurrected Christ describing the creation of Adam to his disciples:

And He (the Father) heaved sighs over him, saying,“If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.” And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.” And My Father said unto Me, “If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.” And I said unto My Father, “Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command.”

The account may be quite old, for it is also known from a Jewish text, Pesikta Rabbati 36:1, where we read that God “under his throne of glory put away His Messiah until the time of the generation in which he will appear.” The devil asked about the light beneath the God’s throne and “God replied: Come and see him. And when he saw him, Satan was shaken, and he fell upon his face and said: Surely, this is the Messiah who will cause me and all the counterparts in heaven of the princes of the earth’s nations to be swallowed up in Gehenna.” God spoke further of “My true Messiah, who will pull himself up straight and will pull up straight his generation, and who will give light to the eyes of Israel and deliver his people.” The text then says that God will speak to the Messiah about his mission:

There are souls that have been put away with thee under My throne, and it is their sins which will bend thee down under a yoke of iron and make thee like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will choke thy spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these souls thy tongue will cleave to the roof of my mouth. Art thou willing to endure such things?

The Messiah will ask the Holy One, blessed be He: Will my suffering last many years?

The Holy One, blessed be He, will reply: Upon thy life and the life of My head, it is a period of seven years which I have decreed for thee. But if thy soul is sad at the prospect of thy suffering, I shall at this moment banish these sinful souls.

The Messiah will say: Master of the Universe, with joy in my soul and gladness in my heart I take this suffering upon myself, provided that not one person in Israel perish; that not only those who are alive be saved in my days, but that also those who are dead, who died from the days of Adam up to the time of redemption; and that not only these be saved in my days, but also those who died as abortions; and that not only these be saved in my days, but all those whom Thou thoughtest to create [evidently as mortals] but were not created. Such are the things I desire, and for these I am ready to take upon myself [whatever Thou decreest].

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that all the members of all religions on Earth who pay homage to Christ and who attempt to live his commandments as they understand them are actually worshiping Satan, and will thus be destroyed when it's too late for them to realize they made a mistake. Nice, eh? But oddly, many Christian religions believe they're the one true church and that everyone else is damned to either Hell or destruction.

If Jesus is the Messiah, he's also the Judge of mankind (John 5:22) and our advocate with the Father. After the fall of man, Jesus became the great mediator. The Father withdrew from man, and Jesus, known as Jehovah, operated as man's go between with the Father. The only words the Father has spoken since then are testimonies of the Son. "Behold, my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him." Some sects believe Jehovah is the Father, but if true, then the Father dealt with mankind directly, to the prophets, with no mediator.

The Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, but they don't believe that he was the Son of God. Nor do they believe he died on the cross or gave himself in any way to atone for mankind's sins. According to their eschatology, Jesus will descend upon a minaret in Damascus in the last days upon the wings of two angels. He will then declare to the Christians that they were wrong and attempt to convert them to Islam. From then on, according to them, Christians will no longer have to pay the jizyna taxk. After that, the choice will be rather easy. Accept the religiion or die.

Now that's a missionary program!

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22

Do JWs use the Baptizmal formula?

by Hortenzie in

do the elders say: "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit" when they are immersing the one being baptized?.

Cold Steel

He didn't answer but asked which congregation I'm associated with.

Probably so they'd know who to contact so you could be dealt with...er...I mean, so they could contact you and help answer your question.

He said I should ask the elders.

Yeah...that would work.

I said I haven't been to the meetings in a while, could he just give me a quick answer. He asked what was the question, I repeated the question, he asked if I have a paper and pen, I asked why, he said he will give me references, I asked what for, he said to do my own research in the online library, I again said that I just needed a simple 'yes' or 'no'.

We actually don't have anything in the Bible that describes how and what words are to be said when baptizing a person. I've oft wondered what the words were that John used when baptizing Jesus. How much did the Jews at that time know regarding the Messiah being the son of God. Looking back, we can see in the Old Testament hints and references to the sonship of Jesus, but John was baptizing people in the wilderness. When Jesus came out of the water, everyone heard the words of the Father relating to Jesus being his "beloved Son" and they saw the Holy Spirit descend in the form of a dove. When Jesus went into the water, I don't think John would have said, "Jesus of Nazareth, I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." I could be wrong, but we don't even know what John was teaching -- only that he had quite a following. Nor do we know how many of John's followers subsequently became Jesus' followers.

Having said that, I don't have any question that a person should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; then immersed and brought out of the water. It's just that the Bible isn't a handbook. It doesn't talk about how to do baptisms, ordinations, the anointing and healing of the sick, etc.

I really thought he will not give me the answer and then he suddenly said no, we don't use it. I thanked him for his honesty, hang up, and got really mad how sneaky they are. Nostagia's gone and I'm so glad I'm no longer one of them... And I'm so glad their baptizm isn't valid.

Do you still feel the need to be baptized?

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22

Do JWs use the Baptizmal formula?

by Hortenzie in

do the elders say: "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit" when they are immersing the one being baptized?.

Cold Steel

Are the elders the only ones who can baptize?

If one decides they want to be baptized, how long would they have to wait? And if someone wanted to be baptized, and was baptized by a member of a non-denominational Bible-believing church in a river, and the person was baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, would Jehovah recognize that baptism if the person lived a good, decent, honorable life? Would not being baptized by the Society be enough to have one destroyed at Armageddon?

What I've read about "Christendom" in the Society literature seems to point at money grubbing, primarily Catholic and organized religion that's hypocritical and teach false doctrine. But what if a church has no formal doctrine outside of believing in Jesus and the Bible? Why would the Lord reject the non-denominational baptism when the Society itself denies it's a church?

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